Friday, February 19, 2010

Rapid Fire Round

I get some questions that don't warrant a whole post, so I'm taking a handful of these and answering them all at once. If you have questions you'd like me to answer, ask them on the FAQ page.

Do you follow Bill Gothard's movement? Are you part of ATI or do you strive to be? Will you use their homeschooling program? Do you associate with the quiverfull movement? Have you read the No Longer Quivering blog?

I had to ask Dan who Bill Gothard was. He described Bill Gothard as "the guy who believes that single women in their sixties should still live at home and be under the authority of their father, who is in his nineties." The fact that I had never heard of him means we don't follow his movement.

Dan didn't know what "ATI" was and neither did I, so I did a swagsearch and came up with a bunch of odd technical things until I came across Bill Gothard's homeschooling curriculum site. Although I'm sure it is a fine curriculum, we are not planning on using it. I will be writing a separate post about what we will be using for curriculum in the future.

I wrote here about our lack of association with the quiverfull movement.

I have come across the No Longer Quivering blog, but I don't keep up on it. If I remember correctly, the administrator believes that the Bible does teach families to desire a "full quiver", but that that part of the Bible is out-dated.

What do you wear when you swim?

I wear shorts and a t-shirt. I don't wear shorts any other time, since I find them not-so-cute, and I have a t-shirt designated for swimming.

On some of the forums that talk about you, people are talking about sending you gifts and things they think you need. What will you do with these things if you receive them?

It will depend on what it is. If it is something that we could use that would add value to our quality of life, we will keep it and use it. If someone sends us something we don't need or can't use, it will go to charity. To those who are seriously thinking of boxing things up and sending them through the mail, feel free to email me first just to see if it is something we want.

How do you know that your children don't need glasses like you if you aren't taking them for regular check-ups?

First, a child's first eye routine exam is at six months. Both Bobby and Daniel went to their six month check-up and Thomas isn't old enough. The second is at the age of three. Daniel is going for regular check-ups and the other two boys are not old enough for this eye exam.

Second, considering the real possibility that what Daniel had was genetic, all the boys are going to doctor's appointments. I don't think routine visits before would have prevented a genetic disorder in Daniel, but I think that if either of the other boys has it, it will be helpful for them to have a solid medical history for doctors to work with.

Third, my need for glasses is not genetic. Out of five biological siblings, I am the only one with glasses, but I will be writing about that topic in a separate post.

What kind of soap do you use to wash dishes?

I use Dawn foam in a pump. I've tried natural dish washing cleaners, but nothing works like Dawn. We have a lot of fat in our diet and thus have some greasy dishes. Dawn cuts grease. Nothing else comes close. I also use it as a laundry pretreater for grease stains I get from cooking and Dan gets from work.
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Becky said...

re: dish soap

We use something even better than Dawn. It's called Miracle II soap. I use it to wash dishes and we use it as bath soap and shampoo. swagsearch it :)

Andria Stanley said...

Dawn is great. The puppy we got recently had a few fleas, and I didn't want to use any harsh chemicals on her. Especially, since my two kiddos are hugging/kissing her. I was looking for something natural, and my grandpa told me to use Dawn. I was skeptical... Bought some... And... It worked! I was amazed.

Early Modern Mom said...

haha. I went to a Bill Gothard thing when Burgundy was very young. I learned a lot from him, but I'm certainly not a follower or adherent. I think the most useful thing I walked away with was the understanding that sometimes when you see a roadblock on every possible way out of a situation, it might be because you need to stay in the situation. Basically to be still and listen a little bit.

But yeah, my understanding is that in his world, everything the Bible says is literally true. Every event is historical fact, etc. So when it says women shouldn't speak in the church, by God shut up. When it says don't cut your hair, by God, don't cut your hair. When it says a Noah built a giant boat, put 2 of every animal on it, and rode out a 40-day flood, well, of course he did. There is no room for allegory or interpretation. Also, the KJV is the only valid version of the Bible (trying to contain my disdain for this notion here), or it was 13 years ago.

In his defense though, he also teaches that men should be like Christ to their wives, even to the point of laying down their lives. Frankly, even though it's in the Bible, I very rarely hear that taught.

Oh - one more big thing I took away from it: The concept of a Right as something that you can willingly let go of because it's not worth having (e.g., "I have a right to shop whenever I want because I have a job," is not a right that's worth losing your marriage). I have used that in every area of my life, and I say it often when dealing with young people, especially my kid(s). Sure, you have a right to (fill in the blank), but is it worth the cost?

Angela said...

Just because you have a condition your siblings don't have, doesn't mean it's not genetic. It could be something recessive, a spontaneous genetic mutation that you can still pass down, etc.

I'm glad you're taking your kids to the doctor.

jennifer johnson said...

Swimming question ... I did the shorts/tee thing when I was younger, single, and even newly married. Once our kids got a little older and we did more public pools, hotel pools, occasional waterpark, and even the YMCA pool it was never allowed. Even the local highschool pool where my kids have taken a few swimming classes doesn't allow shorts/tees. Have you encountered that yet? What will you do?

Emily said...

jennifer, we go to the ocean, lakes and friends' swimming pools. It's been a long time since I've been to a public pool, so I haven't enountered this. That's good to know, though, that there are such regulations.

Our Family Is His said...

I have heard of Gothard and ATI, but we don't subscribe to their teachings. I found too many issues with his beliefs to even considering giving him money that my husband works so very hard for. Sure, we have some similar beliefs as he does (Bible being literal - literal flood, literal 6 day creation, etc - except where it's noted that it's not literal - like Christ's parables), but those came long before we ever heard of him and are totally independent of us knowing who he is.

I also agree that your wearing glasses could easily be genetic. We draw our genetic history from the many, many, many generations of family members that were around and passed long before we were even thought of, long before our parents were even thought of (how the old postman joke came to be about the family of brunettes that suddenly have a child with hair as blond as the winter snow). Also, many things in our genes lay dormant and only show up when triggered by an environmental assault. So all your siblings could easily have that gene that just wasn't triggered. If just looking at our siblings was all that was needed to determine genetic causes to medical issues, genetics wouldn't be such a huge and detailed medical study. =) Once you truly have a child with a genetic disorder (which you are learning about now that I guess you are seeing a geneticist for little Daniel), you learn just how intricate and complicated our bodies really are. God really is an incredible designer. Nothing under the skin (including skin itself) is a simple process.

I am glad the boys are having well-child visits now. So many times this is where things are discovered that even we, as parents never really saw. Or the doctor finds something and we think, "that explains so much" because we just didn't put it together due to our lack of training. I know I say that at least twice a month with our boys and things their therapists find or teach me.

Last, and certainly least (hehehe) we don't use Dawn anymore since we got rid of chemicals for the health of our family, but when I did use traditional cleaners, Dawn really did work well! It was probably the best I found for cutting grease in the realm of traditional cleaners.

JKI said...

Emily, I really hope this is "round 1" of the rapid fire posts. I always find these so interesting!

And what type of shorts do you wear swimming? I've often seen people wear athletic shorts (mesh, running, etc) into public pools and be just fine, but never denim/khaki/chino or even sweatpants material.

Tree Huggin Momma said...

Just an FYI I wear a bathsuit whose bottoms are shorts (just like mens swim trunks but for women) or some have skirt like bottoms (but they still tend to be pretty short. Then the top part comes in a variety of options from t-shirt to halter to bikini. Since I am a larger woman I like the shorts and tshirt style and am most comfortable in them.
Public pools may not allow t-shirts and shorts because they are in fact a drowning hazard. The soak up water (a swim suit does not) and add weight and pull people down. If you were ever to fall overboard without a lifevest it is recommended that you remove your top and bottom and swim in your sundries so as not to weigh yourself down. I assume however that the t-shirt Emily is using is not a big baggy t, but a fitted t.

Emily said...

Our Family, we also believe that the Bible is literal and believe in a six day creation and literal world-wide flood. As I said, I know very little about him, but it sounds like he probably says some stuff we would agree with and some we wouldn't. I know my glasses aren't genetic, though. I am working on a post about it, so I'm going to save that discussion for another time.

JKI, they are kind of like sweatpants material.

Rebecca Rae said...

"Second, considering the real possibility that what Daniel had was genetic, all the boys are going to doctor's appointments. I don't think routine visits before would have prevented a genetic disorder in Daniel, but I think that if either of the other boys has it, it will be helpful for them to have a solid medical history for doctors to work with."

This is the best thing you've ever written.

Question though:

It is a known FACT that the bible is a collection of stories that have been passed down over time until the written word was developed. Therefore is is virtually indisputable that like a game of "telephone" the stories have changed bit by bit before having the ability to be written... so how do you justify such literal translations of the 'meanings' of the stories?

Anonymous said...

Emily, have you seen this?

It's made out of swimsuit material so it's comfortable, but they make them as modest as you need them to be.

Mattie said...

Emily, I'm so happy that they found a cause for your son's episode. That's great news. I can't imagine how scary that was.

Emily said...

Rebecca, I believe in the verbal plenary inspiration of scripture. That means that even though the Bible was written by many infallible men, God had control over the whole thing, down to every word. We don't put our trust in the men or in the words they wrote, but in the God who delivered the Bible to us.

Mattie, I'm sorry, they didn't find out what it was, but genetic disorders were something they looked into.

Our Family Is His said...

Rebecca Rae, your facts are based on?????? The fact that the Bible couldn't be literal is based on???? The reason I ask is, you are asking people to think your way (make a huge leap in their most basic and held tight beliefs) without a shred of evidence to back it up, you just stated it without links to legitimate journals and theologians that prove, without a doubt, that the Bible cannot be literally true.

Gizmola said...

In regards to your not wanting to accept help from strangers, doesn't the Bible say:

If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him?
Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.
I John 3:17-18

Wouldn't it stand to reason that those attempting to offer you mattresses and food are acting in the spirit of Christ and instead of telling people they should ask you if they can send anything you should accept with a grateful heart?

Anonymous said...

Thank you for taking the kids to a dr. I'll be waiting for a post that says why you think your eye issues aren't genetic.

Also, are you open to receiving recipes that are frugal but made with chicken?


Anonymous said...

I have enjoyed your posts for some time. As for a swimsuit - Lands end has a great swim shorts/top combo that works very well for me and satisfies all regulations. The "Overstocks" section oftern has great deals.

Emily said...

Gizmola, I have taken things from people who only know me from this blog and recieved them thankfully. I have also turned away offers of things I didn't need or couldn't use, and i am thankful those people asked before they just shipped something off to me. If something is offered in love, whether by real-life friends or total strangers, but I don't need it, am I obligated to keep it?

Marie, we eat chicken often and are always on the lookout for new recipes.

Anonymous said...

Emily, you can link to a recipe page perhaps? We can share with you. I think some of us (read ME) might feel better if you were eating some of the stuff we eat *big grin*


bewaretheundertoad said...

People want to know what you wear to swim?

That's just kind of creepy...

Glad to hear you're not into ATI. I try to stay away from calling something I don't agree with a "cult"...but that's basically what ATI is (My DH's family was inbolved when he was growing up, but thankfully his parents didn't get too deeply into it, and stopped when their kids begged them to.) Lol at your husband's response though, that's pretty accurate, and it's good to hear that that's NOT the kind of life you would want for a daughter if you have one someday(not that I ever imagined you would anyway.)

I'm also a big fan of the Dawn pump.

nepamom said...

Bill Gothard and his teachings frighten me. I would like to live a more conservative life but would not/could not follow him. I have always wanted a large family but am not QF. I still have another 15 or so "child bearing years" ahead of me and had it not been for occasional BC use over the past 10ish years, I could very easily enter into Duggar territory. I love children...but not THAT much!

"Modest Swimwear" may interest you. Just type that into your search box and a lot of online stores pop up. I think they usually cost a bit more than traditional swimwear but you get a lot more coverage also! You can even choose your level of modesty with some styles...whether your knees and elbows are covered or not, some have a removable vest/skirt combo to wear over the base suit so certain curves are concealed. I think they are a pretty cool concept.

I've honestly thought about stuff I have that you could use since my "3 in a row boys" end where yours start...but in reality I know none of it is necessary and would probably just take up space you don't have to spare. I understand about people giving and how people should accept with a "grateful heart" but...really, how can a person be "grateful" for something they truly don't want or need being dumped on them? I know the giver's intentions may have been good but part of the "it's the thought that counts" concept should include thinking about whether the gift will put more of a burden on the recipient than the going without.

People seriously have already questioned you about glasses for the boys? Just WOW! They are little and any problems they could have at this age would probably be pretty noticeable with or without check-ups anyway. I have horrible far, my oldest (14) has had glasses for only 2 years for minor near sightedness and a slight lazy eye, my almost 5 year old just got a pair for the same thing...same eye for both of them. My 11 year old has an appt. coming up for what we believe is just general near sighted-ness, his father's eyes are about as bad as mine. The other kids are "so far so good"! Genetic or not..some kids have trouble, some don't. I'm sure you are aware enough of your children that you'd know if there was a problem even if you didn't take them for regular exams. Doctors can be great but parents also need to trust their own instincts.

I also like using Dawn. I use a really handy washing wand thingy put the soap in the handle and it comes out through the wet sponge end as needed. The one I have uses replaceable sponges. Tossing the sponge end every couple weeks may not seem budget or eco-friendly BUT I think I use a lot less soap with this than when using a regular wash rag and just squirting the soap in the dish water, so maybe it balances out.

Emily said...

Marie, thank you for the recipes. You can always email me at (:

Organizing Mommy said...

You are too young for Bill Gothard. That was the rage in the 80's. I think Doug Phillips has replaced him in conservative circles. He has some helpful points, but he has gotten a little extreme.

Clisby said...

Our Family is His, you said, "The reason I ask is, you are asking people to think your way (make a huge leap in their most basic and held tight beliefs) without a shred of evidence to back it up, you just stated it without links to legitimate journals and theologians that prove, without a doubt, that the Bible cannot be literally true."

Your thinking is entirely backwards. People who assert the literal truth of the bible are the ones who need to back it up with evidence. After all, they're the ones claiming belief in things that fly in the face of common sense.

And you need to go back to Logic 101 if you think it's possible to *prove* the bible cannot be literally true. If I claim to be the creator of the universe, you can't prove that isn't literally true. If I claim the power to consign you to hell, you can't prove that isn't literally true. If I claim to know for a fact that Jesus was a complete charlatan, you can't prove that isn't literally true. It's logically impossible.

However, it would be entirely reasonable of you to demand evidence in favor of my being the creator of the universe. Just like people with any sense will demand evidence in favor of a worldwide flood, or evidence in favor of some guy in the Middle East being able to magically gather 2 of every kind of animal in the world onto one boat. (Here's a hint: What's written in the bible is not evidence.)

Clisby said...

If you ever plan to go to a public swimming pool, you should check on what's allowed - but at the neighborhood public pool where we swim, T-shirts aren't banned (at least, they've never stopped me from going in with a t-shirt over my bathing suit.) I don't wear one for modesty - I wear it to prevent sunburn. I noticed that several boys wore those rash-guard shirts into the pool, too - those are meant for swimming. As far as shorts go, it might depend on what you mean by shorts. My pool wouldn't let people swim wearing cut-offs or regular shorts, but swim shorts are OK. Women's swim shorts are way shorter than most regular shorts, so you might not like that. On the other hand, if you wanted to wear a man's swimsuit into the pool, how could they ban that?

Atheist Mama said...

I'm with Clisby.

The burden of proof is always with the person MAKING the claim...not the person hearing the claim.

Oh, and the proof's gotta be rational AND logical. Saying it's in the Bible isn't proof. Saying you have a feeling isn't proof. Saying you just know...isn't proof.

Life More Simply said...

Rebecca Rae- historically speaking, before the Bible was put into written language, it followed was is called the "oral tradition." Many things, not just the Bible, followed this--it was a thing of the times and culture. Oral Tradition, though, keeps things very, very accurate. It was extremely important for things to not be changed, and people were taught to remember and retell things in a way that supported that. It's for that reason that certain parts of the Bible are in lyrical/poetic/acrostic and story forms, since that was a historically appropriate way of preserving the oral tradition. Pretty interesting if you ever take the time to look into it!

Also, has some cool looking swimwear that's modest. It was designed to protect the wearer from UV rays, though, so maybe that's why it's fashionable as opposed to most "modest" swimwear that just looks like it should stay home. :-)

I'm Jenny said...

I'm not sure how it's relevant whether your need for glasses is genetic or not. If it is, they should be checked at some point, if not, well, you got glasses without the genes for it, so could they.

As far as the Bible goes, yes, it was passed down through a verbal translation. However, the Bible was put together by the early Church (the only Church prior to the Great Schism.) Although I do believe that they were divinely inspired. I also don't believe that they ever meant every word to be completely literal. I'm a Roman Catholic, just as a disclaimer. I don't get the whole King James thing. To me, the best version is the one that is translated the most carefully to reflect the meaning in the original language. The Bible was not written in English, and exact translations are often not possible due to subtle differences in meaning. Yet another reason why every word can't be taken literally. And really, even fundamentalist Christians do not take every word in the Bible literally.

Michele said...

We are of the belief that the world was not created in 6 days as we know it now. The KJV of the Bible states that for each creative period there was and evening and morning of each day. There is no way to tell how long each "day" was at the beginning of our universe. I do know that the scriptures do say that to God a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day.

As to Bill Gothard, I attended one of his seminars in 1983 when I was in high school. I just recently destroyed the seminar book.(might as well been a brick it was so thick) I looked through the book again before I got rid of it and was amazed that I used to believe that stuff. There was no where in the material that talked about the value of women and how close they are to Heavenly Father's heart. It did mention that wives should submit to their husbands and husband should love their wife like Christ loved the church but more emphasis was put on submissive wives. I now know that true authority of the man as the head of household is a great deal of responsibility and not a position of control like so many men view it. Husbands and wives should work as a team and decisions should be made together. Our jobs as parents is to prepare our children for the world and to do that we must let our children make decisions on their own with guidance of course. We certainly don't think a young woman should live with their parents until they marry.

Our Family Is His said...

Clisby, when you tell a persont that their beliefs aren't true, and leave it at that, expecting them to say, "oh, you are right", it's your reasoning that's faulty, not mine. I said if you want to prove that I should follow a different path in my beliefs, pony up the evidence for your side. Since I just keep hearing, "can't be done", then I will stick with what I believe (just as I am sure you will stick with what you believe even though I said I believe that the Bible is literal except for those few areas where it's clearly not - Jesus' parables and such). That's a fair request, prove how I am wrong or quit pretending that you know I am wrong (she stated it was fact, so she should have no issue proving it, right).

If you don't choose to read the Bible in that way, that's fine. It doesn't mean you are right. And yes, even fundamentalists (which I am not one) believe the same thing I do many, many times when it comes to the literal interpretation of the Bible.

AthiestMom, you are so right. I spoke of my beliefs. She stated they weren't true or right, backed it up with the word "fact", so it's on her to prove she's right. I didn't state it to be in a debate, I stated what I believed, simple as that.

Oh, and there's evidence of many, many, many things in the Bible, just check it out. I am sure you have read the studies before. I didn't put any of that out there to even get into this deep of a discussion. This isn't my blog, so I won't be proving anything as it would take many, many, many blog posts to do and that's not my place to do on this blog. If the person stating I am wrong cares to tell me how she can prove it, that's cool.

Clisby said...

Our Family is His: I think you need to re-read what Rebecca Rae wrote. You apparently didn't get it.

Bubblej said...

Emily, I wear shorts when I swim, but its for vanitys sake, because I don't like my legs (or want to shave past my knee because I am lazy). They are actually worn a lot here and we call them board shorts, or boardies. They are made out of a non absorbant material and are specially designed for swimming. They look like this

I can get them very cheap here, so maybe you could find them cheap as well? They make swimming easier and more comfortable. And they last for ages, I only have to buy a new pair when I get to big for the last pair

Anonymous said...

Emily, this is a bit off topic, but here is a link to another mother living in a very small space (actually, an RV).

I'm going to start doing this! I thought it might help get you inspired as you start your room makeover. :)

faithfulma said...

Hi Emily,
I came found you site here~

I like you. Have to respect a woman that will put God and family before things.

Catherine said...

Yep, there are some pools that won't let you in without a "real" swimsuit. I found out the hard way. Just make sure you call and ask if you are going to a new pool so you don't end up having to sit out and someone else, if anyone else is there, has to accompany your little ones into the pool.

Glad to hear the kids will be taken for check ups regularly. As much as I hate going to the doctors, I force myself. My third one was dxed with cancer at age 5, and that's when it hit home to me how lucky he was to have been up to date on vaccines and check ups. When disaster hits little ones and they have to be hospitalized, all kinds of nasties become likely. Chicken pox, for instance, is much feared in onco wards as at least a kid dies from it each year. When kids are dxed with cancer, or certain other severe life threatening conditions, it's too late to vaccinate, and that is when it is most important to have that protection.

That we had a doctor and records and history all set up was of tremendous help when our disaster struck.

Anonymous said...

"even though the Bible was written by many infallible men, God had control over the whole thing, down to every word. "

In that case, which version did god personally edit? Which translation? And how did you decide which one?


Devon said...

I am SO GLAD you are taking them for well child visits now, ESPECIALLY since Daniel's issue may in fact be genetic. My son has an extremely rare genetic disorder, and it took us 9 months (and a world class neurologist) after his inital respiratory crash to get a definitive diagnosis. PICU docs are great, but sometimes don't have the background in rare genetics to really diagnose something.

Sorry for the novel. ANYWAY, just so so so so so glad you're taking your babies to the doctor now.

Emily said...

Ethel, the Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic VERSION is the one God personally directed. Although God is sovereign over each TRANSLATION, there is no guarantee that any are 100% true to the original language, and close study shows that all translations have a few translation errors. We have copies in the original languages to compare them to, so you can pick which ever one you find is closest.

* And I should have written "fallible men" not "infallible men."

Anonymous said...

hmmm, interesting conversation....

I will note that Emily said that she "believes" in a literal translation. Ultimately it is up to each one of us to determine what we each believe based on the information available to us and how we choose to interpret that information.

I am attending a school of theology at an accredited university and my personal beliefs are radically different than Emily's. My interpretation of Scripture would be considered very liberal as would my personal Christology.

However, I do believe that Emily's faith deserves respect provided it doesn't hurt others (and it doesn't from what I can tell). I would like to think that ultimately, when itcomes to Divinely inspired faith, we can't prove anything. We cannot prove there is a God, nor can we prove there isn't a God. We can prove that the Bible was written and translated by men but we can choose how to interpret this. I believe that we thus need to interpret the Bible with a discerning attitude. My interpretation is very different than Emily's. Fair enough.

I do there there could be an interesting conversation here if we could all behave!

Daisy in Ontario said...

I am new to your blog, but I thought you said you eat healthy foods? But your diet is high in fat, is that correct? Are you talking healthy fats? Or.. I'm confused.

Also, I saw that you don't want your kids to use mattresses, but you use one. Do you plan on getting a nap pad like you're getting them? Or, maybe a sleeping bag?

I don't mean these questions in a bad way, I'm genuinely curious after reading your blog. I have been sucked in for a few hours now. :) said...

Wow, Emily. I didn't realize your blog was so controversial LOL. Some people are SO nosy! After seeing other responses, I feel kinda bad for asking you all those questions. As a family of 5 living on a budget and a small space as well, I was genuinely curious. :) We try to eat as healthy as possible, but it's expensive. My ultimate goal is to get an RV and travel.. but right now we are living in an apartment so we have no house to sell (which means no way to buy the RV), but we are going to continue praying about it!


Emily said...

Sadie, I don't mind questions. I'm writing a little about mattresses tomorrow, so I'm going to save that. Yes, we eat a lot of fats, what we consider healthy fats, but as you can imagine, many of my readers disagree. Right now in our home use we have butter, tallow and olive oil. We also don't shy away from fatty pieces of meat and poultry with the skin on it, so our dishes get a little greasy.

Carlene Knight said...

the thing is even if you take the bible literally it is impossible to really know what you are taking literally is what the bible was meant to teach you. people don't see the same things in the bible even in the same passages. there are tons of arguments about this or that passage.
so even if the bible was absolutely true (accept the parts that are not) you and others may not really be able to understand it. if god saw over the bible he really goofed up in making it so all people don't get the same meaning.
this is the problem with all books even the ones written by god. to read it you have to interpret it and once you do that you have changed the meaning. so how do you really know what you get from it is what it is really teaching you? seeing all the brands of Christianity in all it's forms tells me people can't agree on the bibles meaning. even fundies can't agree.
everyone puts their own spin on it.

Amy said...

Rebecca Rae: You might want to consider reading Evidence That Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell, or The Case for Christ or other books by Lee Strobel. The FACTS are that the evidence that the Bible is true and accurate is quite compelling. (Though if you read a good Hermeneutics book, you'll be able to determine what to take literally and what not to.)

Amy said...

Carlene: The Bible contains many "essential doctrines" and many "distinctive doctrines." On the essential doctrines, all Bible-believing denominations agree. The distinctive doctrines are ones where people could reasonably come to different conclusions. God apparently is comfortable with people drawing their own conclusions on minor teachings but he made the major ones crystal clear to anyone who seeks to understand what the Bible, as a whole, teaches and applies reasonable principles of scholarship rather than just randomly taking things out of context. (e.g. the basic doctrines that are summarized in the Apostle's Creed would be considered essential doctrines)

Margaret said...

Interesting about QF/Gothard.

I've had no problem in the past using "Quiverfull" to refer to my hubby and myself. It's getting more uncomfortable, though. I don't have a problem with "the movement" (I don't think there is a genuine, organized movement, lol). But so many people, both proponents and detractors, have begun to associate QF with a loooong list of other lifestyle choices and beliefs, which I don't fit, or don't really want to be associated with. Gothard being a prime example.

Gothard may be "Quiverfull", but Quiverfull is not Gothard. Just because people's beliefs on one point overlap doesn't mean they believe the same about everything. One of our tenants attends a Holiness Pentacostal church which rejects the use of birth control. Because our beliefs overlap on that single point, does that mean hubby and I are Holy Rollers? Of course not!

My husband and I didn't know there was a name for what we believed about birth control until years after we had each individually come to a conclusion that caused us to reject contraception. Then we met, and were each thrilled to find another person who didn't have the "One for me, one for you, and thank the Lord, now we're through!" mentality.

Carlene Knight said...

well I know for sure how you get to heaven is a hotly debated argument. the others i don't know about myself.

Emily said...

Margaret, I couldn't agree more about being quiverfull. People like to lump us in groups and superimpose beiefs on us that we don't adhere to. One of our biggest beef with quiverfullers is a sort of contest about who is "most blessed", aka who has the most children. That is not treating children as a blessing but a means of competition. It is also not giving God control if you stop breastfeeding prematurely in order to squeeze in another "blessing."

Deborah said...

Is it really essential to my faith to believe in a literal 6 day creation? What about the Gap theory? How long is a day? Was Jonah really swallowed by a great fish or is the story a parable?

I have been a Christian for many years and heard so many arguements about the Scriptures. Too many!

The New Testament clearly teaches that we should forgive one another, love one another and love God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength.

That is a tall order that keeps me too busy to squabble over the Scriptures.

Anonymous said...


Is it possible that your son lapsed into a coma due to Carbon Monoxide posioning? Do you have dectectors in your home? You said he sleeps on the floor. Does your apartment have baseboard heaters? It also clears rapidly when exposed to air, making it less likely it would show in his blood gasses at the hospital. It might explain why he became sleepier and sleepier and also why it was not in any of the tests they ran.

finding my purpose in the 2nd half said...

Emily - I'm confused. I remember reading you left a church because other members put two & two together about your situation and tried giving you things. But according to your answers here, you are now accepting things you need? I find that strange since you are currently making more money with your blogging (which I thoroughly enjoy reading) than you were then. Aren't you now more able to purchase these things yourself than before?

Emily said...

finding my purpose, we don't have a problem with recieving gifts. We left that church because we didn't like the spirit that it was done in.

Amanda said...

Deborah said: "The New Testament clearly teaches that we should forgive one another, love one another and love God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength.

That is a tall order that keeps me too busy to squabble over the Scriptures."

Deborah, no it's not essential to your salvation (as you asked) to believe in a literal 6 day Creation. Or anything else of the sort. BUT I just wanted to point out that those tenants you mentioned, while fundamental, aren't the main things that Jesus taught.

We are also to do good works, reject sin, and be obedient to God and His commandments. (These things maybe fall under loving God with all of our heart, soul, mind and strength.)

I mention it only because these commandments tend to get lost sometimes among Christ's "softer" teachings.

Anonymous said...

I just have a quick question to some of the commenters. If you do not believe that every word of the Bible is the infallible Word of God do you consider yourself a christian. If not all of the Bible is to be taken literally meaning exactly what it says, who has the authority to decide what is and what isn't? Although some things cannot be "explained", why would we need FAITH? Much of what is required of a christian must be stood upon simply on the grounds of Faith in the Word of God. We do not need Faith to believe things that can be scientifically proven or explained away. I am sure I would stir up a quiet a hornets nest as I do take the Bible literally. Therefore I do not cut my hair or wear pants among many other things. I don't condemn others who do and do not expect everyone to follow the path that I have chosen. But also I would like the some respect that I try to give others and wonder at the comments that seem to insinuate people like me are "crazy" Just a thought... also I posted anonymously because I am new to blogs and do not have any type of profile.

Rebecca Rae said...

I am with Clisby and Athiest Mama on this one.

Our Family is His...

"I spoke of my beliefs. She stated they weren't true or right, backed it up with the word 'fact'"

I never really said that your beliefs weren't true or right, though you and others have certainly implied that I am wrong in mine. I just asked that based on the fact that so much time passed between the 'events' and when they were finally written, can you be truly sure that word for word the bible is 100% accurate if you are going to take a literal translation?

I haven't made any false allegations; what I said was: "It is a known FACT that the bible is a collection of stories that have been passed down over time until the written word was developed." This isn't disputed among theologists (sp?) and historians...these events happened before the written word. They had to be passed down over time verbally.

My arguments is that how can you prove that these stories remained exactly the same as they were passed down over the course of hundreds of years?

I think Emily mentioned that the Church kept very accurate oral accounts... so what about in those earlier centuries, when the Church was the government. I think one would be naive to believe that the church didn't 'change' things to work in their favor, to keep their followers believing what they wanted them to believe, and to convert others to hold their same beliefs.

What about if you asked different people involved in the events? Would they have told the same exact story? Whose side was written down in the bible?

Take a look at the US for good examples of that, the 'North' calls it the Civil War the south calls it "the northern aggression." How about the revolutionary war, Americans are taught one view of the war, where the British are taught another view.

I believe that the bible is symbolic, and the stories are to convey messages and general meanings. So the creation of the world over 6 days to me means not (6) 24hour days but that the 6 days could represent a number of periods or stages that the world was created in.


I'm not saying that things in the Bible can't be or aren't true, but I do question if everything can be taken so literally.

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